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Saturday, March 04, 2006

Names for Military Actions

Jennifer referred to "Operation Just Cause" in a comment and this reminded me of a friend's telling me that the loftier the name of a military operation, the less morally lofty it will be. He was retired from the military and I think he was mostly trying to be funny but there is a kernel of truth to what he said.

Before going further, let me say that I am neither a pacifist nor against the military per se. The latter more or less does what the Commander in Chief tells them to. Sometimes though the military, or, perhaps more accurately, members of the military do some pretty nasty things on their own. However, as citizens, we are responsible for everything our government or its representatives do and taking a close look at what they say and do is inherently meritorious.

So, what was "Just Cause," some of you younger sorts might ask who haven't read J_G's comment? It was an operation in Panama to depose and arrest Noriega and demobilize his thugish military and paramilitary forces the latter, interestingly, being called the "Dignity Battalian." This Op seemed to many to be quite problematic and there were jokesters who exploited the name "Just Cause" by asking the question, "Why did we invade Panama?" and then answering it with, "jus-cuz," the casual speech pronunciation of "Just Cause." There do seem to have been some good reasons for this invasion but the fact is that we invaded a country and captured its leader and that is normally thought not to be a very good thing to do. After our long history of military interventions south of our border (recall the Monroe Doctrine, as imperialist a doctrine as one will ever find), it is hard to see any use of military force south of our border as legitimate.

Moreover, Just Cause followed upon "Operation Urgent Fury," in which the US military mounted an operation in Grenada, one of the tiniest countries we have ever invaded. This Op was so flawed in its execution that a documentary on it might seem like a comedy of errors with a plot something like "The Mouse that Roared" but with reversed roles for the USA and the little country. The plot would include the US PsyOps folks setting up "Spice Island Radio" and include calling the Op as a whole "Urgent Fury." The comic payoff would involve American medical students who presumably couldn't get into US medical schools kissing and hugging our soldiers as they were being rescued. I think a lot of people thought that rescuing the students was the point of Urgent Fury but it wasn't. It was part of our efforts to limit the influence of Cuba. But coming so quickly after Reagan's hasty retreat from Beirut after the very unfortunate and savage terrorist bombing of a Marine barracks it looked like a face-saving action both for Reagan and the military.

Compare names like "Operation Just Cause" and "Operation Urgent Fury" with such names as "Desert Shield" and "Desert Storm" from the first Iraq war. These are not especially colorful, as is consistent with the (surely false if pushed very hard) theory that the colorfulness of the name for an Op is in inverse proportion to its worthiness. When Little Bush named his Iraq war "Operation Iraqi Freedom" you had to know that there was something fishy about what he was doing (no WMD, no ties to Al Queda, no trucks with portable chemical weapons labs, etc.) One thing Little Bush has accomplished and that is to make his Dad look good by comparison. Big Bush's Iraq War combined with the Northern and Southern "No Fly" zones combined with UN pressure on Saddam to get rid of his WMD actually worked. At the time we invaded, his army was totally ineffective and would not have been able to invade any country or harm the Kurds in the North and the Shiites in the South, and he had no WMD.

Your homework is to think about what the following Ops names might mean and then find out what they were:
1. Operation Allied Force
2. Operation Restore Hope
3. Operation Deliberate Force
I would argue that they are consistent with the principle that the loftier the name, the less worthy the cause. Maybe you disagree. I wonder if there are any counterexamples to this principle that you know of, i. e., an overblown name for a just action or a modest name for an unjust one? There surely are some. You have to believe that some really bad thing was given a modest, unassuming name at one time or another just to distract us from looking closely at it.

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55 Comments:

Blogger L>T said...

It's just propaganda. Trying to find the best words to justify the action. They can't use terms like 'Manifest Destiny' so they use 'justifiable action' instead.

The great propagandist, Aldolf Hitler said, "All propaganda has to be popular & has to adapt its spiritual level to the perception of the least inteeligent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself."

Ouch.

12:07 PM

 
Blogger Sean said...

1. Bombing campaign to undermine President Milosevic's military infrastructure, with a goal of forcing him to stop his attacks on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in Summer of 1999.
2. American operation to establish a military presence in Somalia to protect relief workers and facilitate aid distribution in 1992-1993. The events inspiring the movie "Black Hawk Down" occurred in the initial attack on the capitol, Mogadishu.
3. Air strike attack operation on Bosnian Serb forces by NATO member forces in Aug.-Sept. 1995.

"Operation Allied Force" is in attempt to show unity at the end of what had been a piece-meal response to the Balkan wars, this unity giving weight to the case against Milosevic.

"Operation Restore Hope" plays on our sympathy for those who are starving and suffering.

"Operation Deliberate Force" is a bit of word propaganda. If we're "deliberate" in our attack, we are justified in our actions and we're scary, so stop attacking, you crazy Serbs.

At least those would be my initial impressions of each of these titles.

I find the second campaign title, Operation Restore Hope, has the greatest potential for inverse moral worthiness, but I can't find much information speaking to any moral problems around the operation. This is not to say that there aren't any, I cannot claim to even be "well versed" in the facts surrounding the operation, and perhaps these is more to that operation than I am finding.

To that note, what I find interesting is that all the information readily available with a Google search is fairly limited to the military facts of these operations (such as troop deployment and battle time-lines) and there is little information as to the factors leading up to these operations and the subsequent ramifications of each operation. On one level I appreciate that, as these sites seem to be trying to provide unbiased factual information, but it leaves me wondering if there isn't more to the story than I am getting from these facts. Someone with more information on each of these operations should post, as I'm sure they will.

One last observation on these operations. While Operation Restore Hope was started under Big Bush, it was handed over to Clinton when he took office in 1993, and he presided over the other two operations listed here. While he did get his dick sucked under his desk while talking to Senators, he did not seem to partake in world destabilizing/polarizing/antagonizing military ventures under the guise of moral righteousness and democratic seed spreading. He spread his seed on dresses. And was impeached for lying about it. The irony of this in light of the past few years is mind numbing to me.

12:22 PM

 
Blogger J_G said...

I think that operation "Just Cause" got its name because there was nothing else to do and we went into Panama “just cause” we needed the practice. I always thought Bush I was a “weenie” and I’m sticking to my guns on that.

James Earl Carter gave away the store away on that deal to return control of the Panama Canal to Panama now the Chinese operate the canal; that makes the US so much more secure how?

To respond to the antics of William Jefferson Clinton; If Clinton had been doing his job instead using the Oval office for sex it might be that we wouldn't had to invade Afghanistan and send troops in to kill Osama Bin Laden. Clinton could have said to the then President of Sudan, yes we'll take Mr. Bin Laden that is in your jail and you'll never see him again, when the opportunity was offered to Clinton. So much for having sex when you're supposed to be doing your job, eh? "Operation Missed Opportunity”

My favorite not so missed opportunity was when “we” (as in my Navy guys) were sending cruise missiles into Belgrade during the attack on Serbia. The “Military Intelligence”(I was always had the understanding this was an oxymoron:-) and CIA were using a ten year old tourist map of Belgrade and they blew the Chinese embassy and all its contents sky high because it was built after the tourist map had been printed(oops). Too funny for words! Maybe Ron knows a few words in Chinese for “cut funding for intelligence gathering” or “buying new maps” from Rand McNally. The same thing happened in Grenada under Reagan so I got ya covered. What was learned from that though? The answer is “Nothing”!

Oh, one more funny story involving sex and the military as long as we are at it. Does anyone remember the cruise missile attack on the aspirin factory in Sudan? I’m sure the wife of the janitor that was killed in the attack didn’t think trying to distract attention away from Presidential indiscretions was a real good idea but you just never know.

On a serious note though, the names of battle plans used to be made to confuse or deceive the enemy and not to justify the operation to a skeptical public or political opponent(s).

5:02 PM

 
Blogger J_G said...

Leave it to the German General Staff of WWI, they're ultimately responsible for starting this name game.
Operational Names

10:26 PM

 
Blogger L>T said...

Analyzing the quote from Hitler, he says about propaganda; 'it has to be popular.'
But, this does not have to mean everyone, only those that count. People who will go along w/a war want to hear certain terms. This might be a crude analogy; I keep seeing in my mind my little brothers playing 'G.I. JOE'. How puffed up & excited they'd get using soldjer talk.

In the second part of Hitlers quote he says, "Propaganda has to adapt its spiritual level to the perception of the least intellegent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself."
That might be interpreted to mean the most child-like, gullible & naive among us. ('Lord of the Flies', comes to mind)

The way I see it, propaganda is as well thought out as any other advertising ploy.

"One good catch phrase is worth a hundred thousand lives." :)

Speaking of overblown names for just actions or modest names for unjust ones. I think at the time of the action, the perception is not always the same as the perception later. This is why horrible injustice is allowed to happen in the name of ...whatever.

1:26 PM

 
Blogger Language Guy said...

sean, your analysis is good.
Tou say, `"Operation Allied Force" is in attempt to show unity at the end of what had been a piece-meal response to the Balkan wars, this unity giving weight to the case against Milosevic.'

That makes sense. It also provides a certain "legitmacy" to the action by making it seem multinational. Big and Little Bush both used this ploy in regard to Iraq, the latter quite illegitmately since he had only one real ally.

"Operation Restore Hope" plays on our sympathy for those who are starving and suffering.

I think also, as J_G noted, these names are directed to the soldiers engaged in the action. This may have helped them to feel good about what they were trying to do. Unfortunately, they went into a quite hopeless situation.

"Operation Deliberate Force" is a bit of word propaganda. If we're "deliberate" in our attack, we are justified in our actions and we're scary, so stop attacking, you crazy Serbs."

I agree "Deliberate force" suggests "a carefully measured use of force" and this was intended to appease outsiders who might have seen the bombing raids in Serbia as being over-aggressive. However, maybe they weren't in reality. I underwtand that a move is afoot to charge Serbia itself with war crimes in Bosnia.

1:58 PM

 
Blogger L>T said...

What!? Did I get an F again. Just kidding L. guy.
I came over to tell you I'm leaving the blogesphere. Getting rid of the computer. (I'm sure i'll get another one sometime, maybe sooner then i think)
I just want you to know how much i've enjoyed your posts. I've learned alot here.

I don't know if I respect you because you are really smart or if I'm just afraid of you because you are really smart. Non the less...It's been one of the blogs I've looked forward to the most.

Chow baby! l>t

5:25 PM

 
Blogger Language Guy said...

Say its not so, L>T. Say its not so. I have enjoyed your comments. They suggest a mind on the prowl for improvement. And that's always a good thing.

7:58 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

It really is sad to say goodbye to l>t. Quite the interesting commenter, being uneducated and therefore a blank slate on many subjects, but still insightful and bright. Our blogs will suffer for not having l>t around.

12:47 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

I suppose I could chime in on the subject of the post as well. Your point is likely correct, but I think that if you are going to have a little war, then the psychological elements of it (including support at home) are an integral part of the overall war effort. So the reasons for using tricky names are legitimate, even if the reason for the war is not.

2:11 PM

 
Blogger Sean said...

I have to take slight issue with Kelly (shocking, I know). I'd rather the support for war come because of the legitimacy of a campaign instead of a tricky name. While that legitimacy is always going to called into question (as well it should always be) and in the end our military leaders will make their decisions regardless of what we think (as well they should), naming something Operation You're Gonna LOVE This One!! seems manipulative and disingenuous, and erodes our trust in our leaders. My trust certainly went out the window long ago.

So, is trickery every a legitimate reason? It comes with an awful price in the end.

10:28 AM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

The end justifies the means, no?

(cough cough choke)

11:11 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

I'm not entirely sure you took issue with me, Sean. I agree with your basic premise that the legitimacy of the action is of utmost importance. But sometimes there's more than meets the eye (we aren't given all the information) and sometimes rightly so. I'm not prepared to criticize some actions of government when we don't necessarily have all the information. This is why I generally stay out of politics and political discussions. They're all bastards--it's just a matter of kind and degree. And maybe they have to be.

2:12 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Degrees of bastardom...haha...

I was glad to see some Hitler references in the comments section...I love German history...even more, I love reading the thoughts of the members of Hitler's regime...

Personally, I can't understand how people CAN'T see the striking similarities between the Hitler mindset/method and the George W. Bush mindset/method...it's the same damn thing; Karl Rove is just a far better spin master than Goebbels was, no doubt he's read Mein Kampf; that Rove phucker, he's a bright one...

peace,

sean

3:14 PM

 
Blogger Paul F. said...

I liked operation overlord....a tough name for a worthy military operation if I do say so myself.

3:35 PM

 
Blogger Sean said...

I do take issue with you Kelly, issue with just about everything you say and how you say it. I would love to have Language Guy dissect some of your statements for their linguistic merits, mainly the implications inherent in their construction beyond the face value statements (funny, that's pretty much exactly the issue with these operational titles).

Can you really say this; "I'm not prepared to criticize some actions of government when we don't necessarily have all the information," and then follow it with this; "They're all bastards--it's just a matter of kind and degree," without seeing the conflict between the two statements? Placing a sentence in between them does not distract those of us who still posses an attention span beyond that of a fruit fly's. Perhaps criticizing their personal character as opposed to their actions is enough of a difference for you, but I’ve always thought that the two went pretty much hand in hand. You seem to be a bright young lad with quite a bit to say, but logical incongruities undermine your positions time after time.

Am I still bitter about the homos as alcoholics and animal fuckers? Yes. Without a doubt.

So I will make my point again; yes, there is much more than meets the eye when it comes to military operations, but putting a feel good name on them is not the way I would choose to convince people of these operations’ merits. They are propaganda pandering to the lowest intellectual common denominator, and suddenly the Hitler references become very apropos.

4:28 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

I see no logical incongruities in what I said. I said they were bastards, yes, because they generally do many evil and/or questionable things. But the reason I choose not to criticize them is because I don't have the information to criticize them effectively and because I think you have to be a bastard to do their job (some people would say the same about lawyers). Their job often includes the task of choosing between or among many different evils, and misdirection (see Sun Tzu) because politics is basically just a different kind of war.
Another reason I don't criticize them is because I couldn't possibly care less about 99% of the issues. And there are a lot of issues out there. Part of this war-like misdirection/spin is to put the emphasis on hot-button issues and do what people want there while screwing them everywhere else. I don't have the tools or the dedication to figure all of this out, and since the media is a bunch of tools I don't think I ever will have it figured out for me. So that's why I don't criticize the bastards. That's why I'm politically apathetic.

10:36 AM

 
Blogger Sean said...

This is a lost cause I am realizing. For someone so politically apathetic and unwilling to criticize you certainly have a number of opinions on politics and a number of criticisms for politicians. Say what you will though, your words speak louder than mine do on this topic.

11:59 AM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

Kelly's right. I for one would say the same about lawyers. But not all of them, since universal quantification involving human beings is often wrong; I don't have any stats, either.

The use of the word questionable referring to the actions of politicians is interesting if you break the word down and think about its meaning. As a citizen it is your right, if not your duty, to question and call elected officials on what they do in your name. Patimur tacemus, by our silence we assent. To all they do. Domestically and abroad. And thereby share in the responsibility, because "We didn't know!" is no excuse. "I don't have the information to criticize them effectively." Then get it, dammit.

Rather than apathetic, I would use indolent. (And yes, this is the well-used kitchen utensils engaging in chromatic comparison again.) But I've made this point previously regarding what you would vote against but not actively campaign against.

(And calling someone bastards and evil is implicit criticism.)

1:35 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

Get the information? You do it for me. Someone do it for me. I don't know anything about political science, but in my lay opinion it would seem that as long as people are too busy with their own lives then they will never have the time to find out everything they need to find out. This is why third-world dictators have such an easy time, because they can point to America and say, "Look! Look how evil they are!" And the people look, and get in a fury, and then they toil away every day to make a living and never have the time or resources to notice how their own leaders are thoroughly fucking them.

Of course, specialization (first made possible with the advent of currency) is supposed to cure this problem, so the media is supposed to be doing this job. But they aren't. And I don't have those resources.

My opinions on the bastardness of politicians in general could of course be interpreted as criticism. I prefer to think of it as a general appraisal. It's based on history more than current events. Maybe I am indolent. I've had opportunity to vote in two presidential elections. I didn't. I'm not sure if I'll ever vote. And the automatic response is "If you don't vote, you have no right to complain." Well, I don't complain. Does that make me a bad American? Maybe. Call me indolent. I probably am. But I'm not alone.

What would a better system be? I don't know. Like I said, I know nothing of political science. But political apathy is an epidemic in the US today, and I think it stems from our inability to trust or to accurately judge politicians, so that it looks like "Do you want to keep you pile of garbage, or do you want what's behind Door #2?" I don't know what's behind Door #2. And I don't know if there's a frickin' brand-new 60Gb iPod at the bottom of the pile of garbage. And I doubt that anyone here does, either. But experience has shown, at least in my opinion, that one President is a maximum of 10% better or worse than another. And I don't know which is which.

I don't know if this comment made any sense at all, but if it doesn't it should be taken as reflective of my utter confusion in regard to politics and politicians and my resultant apathy/indolence towards those subjects.

2:25 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Yad for ibadairon; good points...

new system?

well, i'll focus on it in detail on my blog in a spell; but, volunteer beauracract and representative service in congress as a prerequisite to obtaining a free publicly funded degree (BS, PhD, etc...) we could also offer the free education to people willing to volunteer for military service...no pay....just room and board; but free education and perhaps free health care in a similar reward type system; the repeal of any and all laws governing an individual's most valuable property, self; and, a revamp of the tax code with the gradual implementation and devolution to a flat income tax, flat sales tax on all "unnecessary" items (food, air, water, shelter) with each individual citizen given the RIGHT to apportion their own tax dollars to each /any/all government/publicly sponsored activities (education, health, military, etc)...if you pay into the government institution, then you are entitled to use the facilities and services; if you do not pay in, then you are choosing to obtain these services in the private sector, good for you...of course, things like transportation would be prerequisite for maintaining a valid license and whatnot, and, environmental protection mandatory through government regulation BECAUSE everyone, EVERYONE, NEEDS the enviornment in order to survive, it is not something, in general, that can be owned as property, like my body for example...

peace,

sean

4:22 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

That seems to be a complete misunderstanding of what I meant by a different system, and much of it is unworkable (especially the ability to apportion your tax dollars to particular programs). I meant a different system of choosing political representatives.

4:41 PM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

(Sean, please clarify (keeping in mind that I've essentially been out of the "linguistic herd" for nearly twenty years!) before I proceed (to riff on "new system", both yours and Kelly's): You're wishing/granting me a Torah reading pointer? Or is that an abbreviation of "yadda"? Joining Kelly in confusion, hopefully only temporarily!)

4:52 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Funny...lol...it was a bad typo...it was supposed to be "YAY!" as in, i'm an overexcited coffee drinker...

ironically, kelly, you exhibited some of the same traits sean was complaining about in your reply to me...although, to be fair, i was attempting to be general, to provide a brief overview; under the "system" it would be more of a nomination process, we'd still vote, technically, but there would be no campaigning, no money, it would be a removal of the seed that corrupts, cash...the greatest leaders do not choose leadership, leadership chooses them...

the tax system could easily be revamped, what the hell are you talking about? are you implying that the human race, in general, is too stupid and incapable of creating a better, more efficient and responsive government? it amazes me how people can complain complain complain, then, turn around and complain about other people complaining, all the while demanding that anyone who disagrees think of a solution to the problem; then, when a solution is suggested, it is arbitrarily and pessimistically rejected in favor of the same old system which everyone agrees is extraordinarily faulty...

makes perfect sense to me...

peace,

sean

5:01 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

Well, now we're getting totally off-topic, so I'll limit my response to saying that yes, you could revamp the tax system, but you couldn't allow people to decide where their tax money goes on an individual basis because different programs have different needs although they may be less popular (especially welfare-type programs).

5:13 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

(sorry for double-posting)
Or, at the very least, it's not a good idea at all.

Anything beyond that in this topic is beyond my depth, so I think I'll probably abstain from further discussion here.

5:18 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Anything beyond the judgment of good and bad is beyond your depth, so you'll abstain from further discussion here?

The other Sean is correct to state that you have plenty of logical contradictions in your arguments (i realize he used incongruities, i think contradiction is more appropriate...)

Worry not, kelly, for you make the fatal flaw that nearly all humans make; you're making the mistake of believing that the "topic" of judgment is not the deepest part of analysis...i'm shocked you miss this fact being that you're a lawyer; to be True and Just, one must suspend judgment until all information is known; the key to wisdom is in becoming aware of, understanding, and knowing the fact that all information can never be known...This seems like we should then throw our hands up in frustration and say, "I give." But, that would be a mistake...

However, it would also be a mistake, a grave mistake at that, to go about life acknowledging:

1. I don't know
2. I don't care
3. I hold the one True and Just judgment anyway...

and, that's exactly what you've done in that order...the problem here is that you're building your logic off fundamental misperceptions of reality, hence, though some of your conclusions are True and Just, your reasoning on the way there is faulty at best, and an ignorant lie at worst...

This is a summation of your statements, "I really don't know much about the topic, nor do I care because I feel powerless, but I know, with certainty, that I have enough information and logical power to make a True and Just judgment regarding the topic."

The fact of the matter is that many, if not most, politicians do far more "good" things than "bastardly" things; hence, the reason demonizing them has never accomplished a thing...Should we be content with their performance? Never. Should we stagnate and refuse to progress? Never. Should we settle for less than constant betterment as a citizenry placed in charge of its own destiny? Never.

What are we progressing towards? That's for each individual to decide...I say freedom should be the goal; unfortunately, as time goes on, as it relates to government, ours has grown, and grown, and grown, little by little, gradually eating away at our freedoms and liberties, gradually eating away at our sanity, gradually degrading our standard of living and increasing our risk of conflict with other entities...unfortunately, as time goes on, our government has floated closer and closer to fascism and socialism, and away from Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, that's the root of the problem...deep down, we all care about the same thing, self...only, we haven't yet figured out how to get all these caring selves to get along nor live and let be...

The lines are being drawn for the final war, and across all cultures and all religions, it has the same name:

Operation Freedom Torn

And, across all cultures and all religions, the dividing line is thus:

Those who seek freedom on my side, and those who seek to control it on the other...

Whether you agree with me or not, fact is most Americans and our government are seeking to control freedom...me, i'm perfectly content with the fact that there will be those who seek to control it until they're all dead...only, for me to act in accordance with my individual code of morality which is founded on freedom, i must live and let be, forgive and forget until the last possible moment when my self has been attacked and life in jeopardy, then, at the last minute, when it cannot be denied that some fascist ass is trying to take my life, i know this, i might walk away bloody, but i'll walk away breathing...

and, no, we're not getting off topic--

the fact is our government has commited immoral and unjustifiable acts of war throughout its history; fact is we are, as citizens, responsible for our governments actions...i refuse to allow myself to be put at risk by a small number of rich assholes who don't know nor care about me, that's not democracy, that's republicanism, some make it look pretty by calling it a "representative democracy."

What I want is greater representation, very specifically, more of THE PEOPLE governing THE PEOPLE, not THE RICH governing THE PEOPLE...

do you, kelly, as an educated man, even know the maximum number of representatives in congress allowed by the constitution???

you don't do you...look it up...oh wait....i forgot....you're the lazy, ignorant intellectual lawyer who said,

" Get the information? You do it for me. Someone do it for me. "

Okay, I'll do it for you; don't worry, most of my time is spent picking up the slack for stupid, lazy, %ucks (see my latest blog post)...by our constitution, we are allowed up to 1 representative in congress for every 30,000 citizens;

300000000/30000= 30,000 representatives

voters? ok...fine...150000000/30000=15,000 representatives...

either way we're at least 14465 short of our maximum...or, you could say that our fuel tank is 7.6% full; i wonder how much money the top 7.6% of the population makes per year?

not sure...i'll have to do some research on that one...

point is:

if you are as you say you are, why are you willingly playing the role of the useless armchair quarterback?

think man.

think.


that's it,

not attempting to degrade,

just being honest,

i appreciate your input because you do have SOME good ideas...

peace,

sean

2:19 AM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

sorry...was lieing there and thought, my fuckin math was really off...just got off work, tired, retarded and whatnot...

300000000/30000=10000
150000000/30000=5000
50m=1666

regardless of which way you slice it we're far short...

2:47 AM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

Well...that was something!

I'm afraid Sean has (figuratively) used up all the breath in the northern hemisphere, so I'll just shake my new yad at him in pretend disapprobation.

This all chimes in quite well with some somethings that have been rumbling about in my ole noggin for the last few days, so I will shamelessly do the traffic ho' strut (Pimp my site?) and announce my intention to lob a related post up on my blog within the next day (or so) as well.

Ciao for now!

5:30 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

I'm not sure where you're getting the "one True and Just judgment" thing, unless you're referring to a previous post. In any case, I think you're off base. I (like any American) do know about some issues and have an opinion on them. My point was that we don't have enough information about all the relevant issues and politicians' positions on these issues (aside from propaganda) to make an informed decision as to which politician we should elect. Beyond that, I don't think we have the information to criticize some of the actions our politicians take. That said, I still think a republic is a far superior system to a democracy, at least when the size of the governed body is so enormous as it is in the U.S. Specialization is key in an advanced social system.

I'm not taking the role of an armchair quarterback, and I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.

And I have a question . . . why in the hell would you want to have that many people in the House? (Yes, we did discuss that provision at the beginning of Con Law II for reasons too complex and off-topic to discuss.) Do you seriously think we should pay that many people? Have you ever taken a group theory class, in which you would have discovered that over-large groups make terrible decisions?

I'll retract by statement that all politicians are bastards. I'll just leave it at "Most of them do bad things some of the time."

I understand why lobbying works. This is probably what led to my statement that they are all bastards. I also understand that any decision-making group will not make a decision that makes the majority happy when there are at least three different views (as I'm sure always happens in Congress).

And finally, I'd like to add that I'm most disappointed in the ad hominem attack, or, as it's sometimes known on the Internet, troll-baiting.

9:00 AM

 
Blogger J_G said...

Kelly, I said it before. Stick to your beliefs. Justify them by arguing your point with people that do not share the same beliefs. This will make you a much stronger person and will make you understand if you correct in what you believe. The harsher the attack the better. That means you are making your opponent dig and evauluate their own beliefs.

As far as governments and Republics are concerned, ours is not perfect but it is still the best that has been implemented. It's going to be up to people like yourself Kelly to make sure it continues that way.I've seen anarchy up close and personal and it's a damn ugly thing.

One more thing for you Kelly. When people resort to personal insults they have given up the argument and you have defeated them. Having said that, if you are going to return the fire (which happens occasionally) make it count. For your own sake though don't reduce yourself to that level. That's what has become of political debate in the country, too much personal insult and not enough substance.

9:38 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

Thank you very much, j_g. I think you're absolutely right. And I follow your advice. I am not compromising my beliefs, but rather revising my statements because I became convinced that I went too far in calling all politicians bastards. Just most of them, much of the time.

12:40 PM

 
Blogger J_G said...

Politicians believe they have the right to act in their own self interest rather than the interests of their constituancy because of the complete apathy that the constituancy demonstrates when they are called upon to exercise their right to vote.

The Congressional retention rate is about 96 or 97 percent. No one is holding their feet to the fire so they do what ever they darn well please.

Term limits for Congress is still an appropriate solution and the problem of a entrenched permanent staff can be overcome as well. Apathy is alive and well so it will never happen.

With all the talk about the Republicans losing control of congress, the retention rate and voter apathy is in direct conflict with that notion.

1:21 PM

 
Blogger Sean said...

Changing your beliefs when they have been shown to be wrong is not compromising your beliefs, it's prudent intelligence. Obstinate and blind adherence to beliefs in the face of all challenges is not strength, it's weakness. Flexibility of mind and the willingness to be open to all arguments, each one taken on it's merits, it's logic and it's reason is true strength, not only of belief but of character.

I once believed quite firmly that all people were capable and fully functioning human beings, but that has been proven false time and time again at this point. So I changed my beliefs and my behavior accordingly. But I'm still open to the possibility that humanity IS fully capable, and that we've just collectively had a really bad day, for a very long time. When the facts of that new reality are staring me in the face, I will gladly change my beliefs.

1:50 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Ahh...hangin' on to beliefs, good call, please continue to ignore reality for some fantasy world of belief...

is it not true that this same large number of dolts can make bad decisions regarding their elected officials?

rhetorical question.

of course they make stupid decisions...

if your primary reason for choosing a republic over a democracy is the fact that large numbers of people make stupid decisions, then you're obviously forgetting the fact that that same large number of stupid people must decide who decides for them...

yes, we should have that many representatives; and thank you, for proving that you weren't paying attention...volunteer representatives...i'll say it again....VOLUNTEER REPRESENTATIVES...NOMINATED, VOLUNTEER, REPRESENTATIVES WHO SERVE THE PEOPLE INSTEAD OF MONEY AND SPECIAL INTEREST...

all the government, from local up to federal, would be composed of nominated professionals and students seeking to apply their education in a practical setting IN SERVICE TO THE PEOPLE, AS WAS INTENDED BY OUR FOUNDING FATHERS...

what service is government supposed to provide? the protection of LIFE LIBERTY AND HAPPINESS, the protection of individual rights, nothing more, nothing less...

this is why people like JG are confused...i'm far more conservative than any republican...

the fact is, republicans are NOT conservative; they're fascist, authoritarian, leftists in patriots clothing...

stupidity never ceases to amaze me; since JG is practically quoting winston churchill with, " As far as governments and Republics are concerned, ours is not perfect but it is still the best that has been implemented."

allow me to quote albert einstein in relation to how i feel about you folks stale opinions,

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!

I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.

I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.

If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor.

It gives me great pleasure indeed to see the stubbornness of an incorrigible nonconformist warmly acclaimed.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

The high destiny of the individual is to serve rather than to rule.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.
Albert Einstein

So, tell me...what great and new improvement upon the world are you lobbying for?

that old republic where a few are master and the citizens the dogs to be beaten into obedience?

this wanna-be democracy which happens to be "good enough" for you who CANNOT THINK of anything better?

for control over the dullards yourself?

are you a power hungry fascist like many of our representatives?

which is it?

ahh...but i forgot;

kelly:

doesn't know
won't research
tries to command others to do his work for him

(great leader, i'll vote for him.)

JG:

knows her history well,
BELIEVES SHE'S NEXT TO GOD (believe being the key word),
and wants to force everyone else
into her "believable" worldview...

So, in closing, I thank you Kelly and JG for being True Americans, for being in Love with Freedom; for believing you KNOW so well as to throw your hands in the air and proclaim,

"It's the best we've ever had, let's keep it!"

brilliant...

simply brilliant...

think of your PC...it's the best on the market! we spent $4000 on it! it's fast! efficient! two months later....it's middle market again!!!

wow...too bad innovation doesn't come that quick when it comes to governments...what on earth would cause The People to ALWAYS accept a shit product from their government?

In the words of Jefferson:

"Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
=======
and, since the words of college dropouts are summarily rejected in order to uphold self-righteous, stale, opinions and logic, do as i do, and learn from others:
=================
That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
Thomas Jefferson

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).
Ayn Rand

Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.

No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
James Madison
========

p.s. the fact that you referred to politicians as bastards is not the MAIN issue here; the main issue is your refusal to acknowledge reality as is, and your laziness in your pursuit for something better...you promote a society that perpetually injures itself and contradicts the fundamental ideology it was founded upon; good luck with that one...

peace,

sean

2:21 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

for the record, because i know that dullards have a habit of knit-picking irrellevant points in an argument (especially lawyers), i was not implying that our founding fathers intended gov't reps. to be volunteers; they did however, intend government to be as small and unobtrusive as possible, with the primary goal, duty, responsibility of gov't being the protection of INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS TO LIFE LIBERTY HAPPINESS...(IT WAS ACTUALLY PROPERTY, NOT HAPPINESS, THAT JEFFERSON REC'D, BUT ALL AGREED THAT PROPERTY OWNERSHIP WAS PREREQUISITE TO HAPPINESS)

PEACE

2:24 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

One more thing, of course, for the record; despite the fact I believe the majority to be a bunch of unworthy, lazy, arrogant, spoiled fascist assholes, yes, as a matter of fact, I would be more than willing to volunteer two years of time, unpaid, in order to serve the people of my country, in the true sense of the word, and in the true spirit of our constitution...

unfortunately i'm fighting a battle against a populace more concerned with pride than honor; more concerned with convenience than truth...blah blah...fighting a population too lazy to make this country as great as it could be, and too selfish and greedy to give up money in return for peace

peace

2:29 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

You have gone so completely all over the place that it is entirely impossible to respond to your "arguments" and still be a nice person, so I refuse to do it.

2:34 PM

 
Blogger J_G said...

This is what maturity is about; the ability to walk away from easy pickins. Put that in your notebook Kelly and don't forget it. It will serve you well. good night.

4:04 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Your inability to see the self-evident connections between things in reality is only evidence of your lack of analytical skills and the fact that you don't pay enough attention to the World around you; you're more focused on inflating and protecting your ego than on Truth...i'm not troll baiting...it's all related; just because you lack the ability/motivation/intellect to understand and assimilate reality into your philosophy doesn't mean that what i've written is irrellevant, it means you're being closed-minded, lazy, and stubborn in your intellectual endeavors, just like JG...

but, this is not shocking; JG's the type of person who says, "I KNOW God exists," which is a blatent lie and denial of the fact of the matter, which is that JG, "BELIEVES God exists..."

such a small difference, i know, but its the difference that enables dullards to rationalize completely outlandish stereotypes and beliefs like, "All Jews are evil..."

What's the point? How do I connect all this to wartime operation names?

IF

all individuals took control of their individual life and were motivated enough to govern self

THEN

we'd never have to worry about deceptive operation names because any individuals who start wars for unjust causes would face the consequences of their actions on an INDIVIDUAL level...

as it stands right now, each individual is subject to the consequences of the actions of others; i face a greater risk of death from terrorist attack because the majority of the world is too stupid and lazy to figure out how to avoid conflict after thousands of years of existence, why should i be forced to take responsibility for your stupidity? why should i be responsible for so many people who can't even figure out how to properly act on their own philosophies?

"The Truth is rarely pure and never simple."
-Oscar Wilde

"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
— Ayn Rand

I assumed a long time ago that JG was too simple minded to grasp the complexities that Truth offers; but, Kelly, I'm dissappointed...thought you were better than that after reading your blog...guess not...

peace,

sean

5:26 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

All others take notice how quickly and readily both Kelly and JG choose ignorance and self-righteousness over confrontation and resolution of thought...

it's a great approach if you're seeking stagnation and complete irrelevance;

horrible if you seek progression and betterment...

peace,

sean

5:31 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-Mohandas Gandhi

6:07 PM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

In keeping with the theme of the original post...

Isn't somebody supposed to yell "INCOMING!" before these things hit?

Sean (and everyone), I think in some respects you're attacking a couple of strawmen. You will recall that J_G and I have had our moments here, but after a couple of her comments I was forced to re-evaluate my opinion of her. This has led to more constructive debate (both in comments and via email). We still don't agree on a lot of issues...and I dare say it will be a cold day in a very hot place we don't believe in (I'm referring to the UAE, of course) before we do. She is every bit as complex and interesting as you are. (What, did someone mumble "high-maintenance"? That's cool. Low-maintenance people are usually fairly dull and a bore, IMHO.)

As for Kelly, I think he has a lot of potential, as do you yourself, but he's still very young. As are you. (An example of a point of disagreement between J_G and myself would be the earlier comments about maturity...not that I myself have a lot of room to make pronouncements in that area.) I hope Life is gentle when it gets around to taking him down a few notches, as it inevitably must.

Just my POV...FWIW.

12:22 AM

 
Blogger J_G said...

"Operation Predictable Attack", every operation planner's desire.

9:54 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

I think Sean's problem here is that he's attacking me for something admitted. I agree that it's wrong to be apathetic toward politics. But I am anyway, and I am just one of a vast majority of people in my generation who feel this way. I was trying to explain why we (or at least I) feel this way.

I wonder what the Language Guy would have to say about that. Maybe it's in the most recent post. I'll have to look.

11:19 AM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

Kelly, I can't fault anyone for being apathetic about politics, because that's the way I was until not too long ago. "Recognizing a problem is the first step towards trying to fix it" is a notion that has appeared here before. I personally feel that I have a lot to do in the remainder of my life to make up for years of political laziness. I have been a bad citizen.

If we want change, WE need to work for it. It's a daunting task, but giving up and disengaging because of that is the worst possible course we can choose. FWIW.

12:51 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

This is all so comical to me in the big picture...as far as maturity level...lol...i'm 25; and, i was a bit pissed last night when i took one of those "personality tests," titled, "What age do you act?" And, after a few pages of questions, it spat back, "25." Great. Tell me something I don't know. More annoying is the fact that if I were to retake the test 3 months from now it would put me in my thirties simply due to promotions/moves/increas in work hours and pay, etc...

anyway; it's comical to me because the approach i take online is 200% more abrasive than the approach I take face to face (most of the time; i'm still known to abandon all politeness and tact if someone expresses the fact that they believe they have a right to control my life, then shit hits the fan and they usually leave crying, if female, or under police escort, if male). lol..ok..so police escort is exaggeration; but, let's say I've been sucker-punched well over three dozen times for expressing ideas...

it never fails; present some retard with an air tight logical argument and force them to recognize their stupidity in public; and, magically, the most well-mannered fascist will turn into a raging lunatic looking to physically beat anyone who disagrees with them---so much for American Ideals; wait, that's exactly how much we've PERVERTED American Ideals!!!

The grand comedy here is the FACT that the majority of Americans (especially JG) take PRIDE in being American while having next to zero comprehension of what it MEANS to be an American...

Pride is a useless feeling; nothing good has come from it (see Hitler)...

Pride is the word we use to describe the warm fuzzies we feel when we celebrate SELF...that's all...

Proud to be an American?

Did you have a choice in the matter?

nope...random fuckin' chance...

to quote Bill Hicks,

"I tried to tell my parents, "Fuck in France! Fuck in France! But, they didn't hear me cuz I was in the spirit realm at the time with no mouth or vocal chords...are you proud to be an American? Well, my parents fucked there...Okay, I'm proud!"

This is comical to me because its self evident that the only thing being harmed here is some dullards ego; well, ego and falsehood, more accurately, ego and idiocy are being beaten with verbal sticks...

Comical because I know that even if I were self-deprecating, polite, if I were to "conform" to the standards of "scholarly discourse," of which I am surely not ignorant, rather, indifferent, then folks like JG would be more amicable towards me; however, I'm relatively certain it would have no more effect on people's thinking...

So...I float along with the hope that some might say, "He sounds pretty pissed off...perhaps I should see what he's trying to say..."

No dice.

I'm just honest; that doesn't mean that some of my descriptions of, say, the "average" American, don't apply to me---oh no, and, again, face to face, i'm the only person I know who uses the phrase, "I'm ignorant," multiple times per day...

funny thing happens when you're honest with your SELF, you learn things...if anyone within' earshot of me speaks of ANYTHING which I am not educated to, I'm liable to walk up to perfect strangers wiggle my way into a conversation I know nothing about, unafraid and ready to use one of my favorite phrases, "I'm ignorant, educate me."

I'm ignorant.

I'm ignorant.

I'm ignorant, and that's why I generally end up with more intelligent insight than most people; to, AGAIN, quote socrates,

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

I have a tendency to become righteous in speech, sometimes self-righteous; fact is, i put a lot of effort forth each and every day to better myself and everyone around, something which i am marvelously successful at doing, and something for which I receive ZERO credit...so, I apologize if that translates into a tone in the blogosphere that some of you can't stand...

the fact is this:

THEY'RE JUST WORDS PEOPLE...

LIFE ISN'T THAT BIG OF A DEAL...

if you take offense to being called ignorant, you are ignorant and can't stand to accept what you feel is a "negative" aspect of reality...your problem, not mine...

life take me down a few notches?

already been done, day in and day out; what part of being raised roman catholic is NOT about destroying ego??lol...

JG...JG will be nothing when she dies...me...barring some freak accident...I promise...one way or another...the world will remember my name...

kelly...kelly...shit man...you pretty much hit the nail on the head with your last comment...that's a succinct description of what set me off...

as i noted earlier..i have, and do, casually read your blog and expected much more from you...in fact, it was also a judgment based on your previous comments on this blog...

one of my best friends and I have avoided political discussion for 3 years because he takes the same approach that you do...i would fathom to guess he's actually much more apathetic than you are; and, no, i can't personally understand for the life of me how one can choose NOT to care about politics...because, whether you like it or not, politics and government are involved in EVERY SINGLE MOMENT OF YOUR EXISTENCE...

from the regulations place on the water faucet you brush your teeth over, to the plates you eat off of, to the water you consume, the air you breathe, the car you drive, when you retire, etc, etc, e nauseum...

admittedly, i was shocked by your opinions; never expected it; you just don't seem like the type of person who would be okay with allowing others' control over your life...

but, hell, to each their own; that's the way i see it...unfortunately for me, people like you and JG feel perfectly justified in attempting to control my life through government, and effectively threatening my well being if i don't obey your demands...that's the practical effect of apathy and "democracy..."

democracy in America was NOT meant to be a "majority rule," government where the majority gets to "lawfully" coerce the minority into obedience...

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."
Thomas Jefferson

I'll couple that with another recent quote I posted..

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)."
Ayn Rand

That posted; the FACT of the matter is that we have a majority (which includes JG, of course) who feel wholly justified in OPPRESSING the individual rights of citizens to have control over the most important piece of PROPERTY they will ever own, their body; and those oppressed have every right to rebel against their oppressors and their punishments; and, IN FACT, it is human nature to rebel against it; hence the reason our country has such a high incidence of crime despite being so "civilized;" we're filled with a majority which is nothing less than fascist authoritarians in the mold of a much stupider and lazier Hitler; our majority just makes up illogical irrational arguments and elects spin masters to stick up for their fascist ways...

as far as my anger and approach...i'm in love with quotes lately; it allows me to use peoples' "idols" and "heroes" to show them just how wrong they are...

"One man with courage is a majority."
Thomas Jefferson

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."
Samuel Adams


peace,

sean

4:00 PM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

(Sean, just to clarify: although I was referring to both you and Kelly in that one paragraph, the Life comeupance bit was not about you. You got that, right? Buenas notches!)

7:16 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

fuckingroovin'--->>>***author maintenance in progress. version 6.8 available ASAP***

lol...

peace,

sean

1:35 PM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

I don't want to go down this road again, but your body is not property.

1:48 PM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

If'n you don't wanna go down the road, don't blaze the trail, eh? : )

Excellent point, though.

Your body is you. And you are your body.

The jury is still out on any extra-corporal elements or aspects.

Wagons ho!

7:07 PM

 
Blogger S.R. Deardorff said...

Your body is you?

This is nonsensical.

Here's why:

You=Your Self

It is the same as saying, "The body in relation to your self is your self." or,

"The body possessed by your self is your self."

A thing "C" cannot be in relation to your thing "D" and BE thing your thing "D."

It would be the same as saying, "The car in relation to my car is my car." Oh, and, "My car is my car in relation to the car."

What you are saying is that the physical concrete thing which houses the totality of physical organs is equivalent to the totality of things both physical and abstract which are related to the thing described and labeled a person, an individual, a self.

The concept of abstract exists BECAUSE it is MORE than physical reality, the abstract is the infinite possibility, and the concrete is perpetually trying to catch up; the abstract is more VALUEABLE than the concrete, hence the reason rational men become willing to sacrifice their concrete lives to protect something much more valuable, their ABSTRACT thought...If this were not True, if this were not Reality, then you would not have the freedom today to irrationally argue against it...

The only worldview in which one could logically argue that the body is the self is one where there exists no mind, and no free will, no free choice; a worldview of predestiny where we no longer need the term "individual" or "self" because each "body" is just that, just a body, a thing with no character, no mind, and no personality to speak of.

I can't begin to tell you how degrading it is to every PERSON (including YOUR SELF) on the planet to claim that their body defines them, or their body is them, that they are defined by their body, or that they are their body...I'm disgusted nearly to vomiting at the thought of just how degrading the last two comments are to the VALUE of the mind and the SELF, my stomach turns at the thought of how the last two comments completely DEBASE the INDIVIDUAL, the PERSON, which is composed of the body (a mere mortal, physical, CONCRETE Tool for the mind) AND the ABSTRACT thoughts, ideas, creations, the INFINITE possibilities of the human mind which, time and time again, have proven that they can live on forever, or, at very least long past the time the PHYSICAL body dies and decays...Bodies die...People live forever, if "only" in the abstract...

I'd hate to see the grim reality this World would face if everyone accepted reality and its infinite abstract possibilities...

By definition YOU are more than YOUR body;

What controls YOU?

My MIND controls ME.

My MIND owns ME.

My MIND owns MY BODY.

My BODY is my MIND'S PROPERTY.

I am my mind.

My mind is me.

My body is mine.

It is not your body.

It is not God's body.

It is not the Earth's body.

It is not the government's body.

It is MY body.

And, when someone tries to take it away from me permanently, I'll kill to defend Me AND My property.

Kelly, you listen to Tool, I'm, again, disappointed...Lateralus, title track, number nine in case you forgot it (I'll post the lyrics at the bottom even though this comment is a novel, i think this threads about dead and gone)
===========
http://m-w.com/dictionary/your

Pronunciation: y&r, 'yur, 'yOr, 'yor
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English Eower; akin to Old English Eow you -- more at YOU

1 : of or relating to you or yourself or yourselves especially as possessor or possessors (your bodies)


http://m-w.com/dictionary/possess

possess:

Pronunciation: p&-'zes also -'ses
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French possesser to have possession of, take possession of, from Latin possessus, past participle of possidEre, from potis able, having the power + sedEre to sit -- more at POTENT, SIT

1 a : to have and hold as property
=========


Lateralus

Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
lets me see.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
drawn beyond the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.

Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
lets me see there is so much more
and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
drawn outside the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.

Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
Reaching out to embrace the random.
Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.

I embrace my desire to
feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral
of our divinity and still be a human.

With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
I feel it move across my skin.
I'm reaching up and reaching out,
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.

Spiral out. Keep going, going...
======

peace,

sean

7:57 AM

 
Blogger IbaDaiRon said...

Thus spake the epiphenomenon of quasi-random synaptic activity in the brain of one of the naked primates at the top of the Terran foodchain.

I'm tempted to sic my Platobot (a version of Chomskybot) on you again, but ain't really in the mood for the minimal effort required to access it and copy-paste the output.

I understand only too well the desire to believe that something of the "more than the sum of its parts" conscious SELF we perceive will survive the demise of the very object which gives rise to it, but I see no evidence to support such a belief.

And the rest is ill-used silence.

1:00 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

Well actually I was speaking in a legal sense, and since this is not the road that I wanted to avoid I will go down this road. I am actually offended by the view that your body can be property in a legal sense. You are begging the question a bit here because you assume that there is a "you" that is distinct from the "body." This is certainly a defensible position, but it is not the only rational position (even for a Christian). And you conveniently pick only one definition of "possess" which terms something as "property." You are also being trapped in the world of linguistic formulations which you can't honestly expect me to believe that it can capture the true meaning or essence of all things. Leto II, the God Emperor of Dune, would simply smile and laugh at you. Please, Sean, don't call a position indefensible or obvious or ridiculous when it certainly is not.

And of course I'm supposed to accept Maynard James Keenan as the premier philosopher, whose views are unquestionable, even when the lyrics are ambiguous. Not to mention that he thinks drugs are a way to expand your consciousness, which is just a pretty way of saying "mess with your brain's chemistry."

10:44 AM

 
Blogger Kelly said...

"In its widest sense, property includes all a person's legal rights, of whatever description. A man's property is all that is his in law. This usage, however, is obsolete at the present day, though it is common enough in the older books.... In a second and narrower sense, property includes not all a person's rights, but only his proprietary as opposed to his personal rights. The former constitute his estate or property, while the latter constitute his status or personal condition. In this sense a man's land, chattels, shares, and the debts due to him are his property; but not his life or liberty or reputation.... In a third application, which is that adopted [here], the term includes not even all proprietary rights, but only those which are both proprietary and in rem. The law of property is the law of proprietary rights in rem, the law of proprietary rights in personam being distinguished from it as the law of obligations. According to this usage a freehold or leasehold estate in land, or a patent or copyright, is property; but a debt or the benefit of a contract is not.... Finally, in the narrowest use of the term, it includes nothing more than corporeal property -- that is to say, the right of ownership in a material object, or that object itself." John Salmond, Jurisprudence 423-24 (Glanville L. Williams ed., 10th ed. 1947).
Emphasis added, from Black's Law Dictionary 8th Edition.

11:11 AM

 

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